wow. the response to this poem was intense. Although I didn't read each post word for word, I sure heard the message of each. Just shows how incredibly divided we are as a nation and in our world views. To John, thank you for the poem.

"I don't care...take a dump in my yard!!" LadyPeninhand, I want to make sure I understand you correctly. If you know that your neighbor has plans, or is constanly plotting to kill you and your entire family and destroy your house, you'd be perfectly fine with it? You wouldn't try to stop him in any way? After all, they're not bothering you right now, so everything's fine. Is that how you feel? Do you really believe that we just need to give these people their own land? If I'm not mistaken, Israel just tried that. What happened next? Israel was attacked. I think the major flaw in your argument is the belief that there is no right or wrong. It doesn't necessarily have to be based on religion. You said yourself that we are "human-beings, human-kind, humanity." Their is nothing humane about wanting to kill and destroy your neighbors. That being said, it is a part of humanity to want to defend the innocent, which happen to be the ones targeted by militant Islam. In this case, there is a right and wrong on the level of humanity itself. When innocent people are murdered, justice must be carried out. Retaliation is necessary to try to deter the enemy from launching further attacks. They must understand that their behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated by the rest of human-kind. A belief in the fundamental right to live is needed for this argument, but I'm afraid you may not have this belief. Someday, I hope you see the impossible position you put yourself in when you don't believe these simple fundamentals of the humanity in which you preach.

why everyone started arguing over this one. I saw the poem as not necessarily arguing for revenge, but considering whether it would be a deterrent "if" it were used. And even if the poem did argue for revenge, it's not a factual op-ed style piece, it's a poem that to me reflects the raw emotions of thinking about what happened that day. I like the quote in your profile, by the way. I find that the more I look into an issue, the less "black-and-white" there is.

Compared to large events in the universe around us, (something a crane can't lift) or straddle it is more like microbe to microbe or electron to electron quark to quark planck length to planck length all in jerky animated increments of planck time. pixels at the clockticking level of reality. yeah, it could all be a simulation. but really big. That said. The reason John Minstral got an 8 vote from me was to encourage him to speak out. I will remember for a while at least the name. Recognizing courage. And you too, LadyPeninhand, keep writing. But I ask you both . . . to . . . IMAGINE what one or many of the countless other forms of life with pretentions of intelligence certainly extant on worlds numberless or virtually infinite in count, do, themselves, confronting their own existence, inventing their own concepts of logic into value systems of good and bad, 0 and 1, + and -, true and false? What God do they hold as representative of their ideals? Or do they apply to the Universal God of All things, Larger than stars, Galaxies, Universes, ageless, timeless, transcendent? It is a good question. I think it may have a Universal answer. They, probably like us, in that we are trapped inside the scheme of things, can also ask the ironic: Why? What is the point of this and us and how long can it endure. . ? But ant to ant, living in a social system of ants, I understand that. And Antonia, brilliant, gentle adventuress, spinner of brief sharp, direct and accurate concise evaluations . . .wow! Point, Ant Antonia. ant les (a tiny thing)

Anthony... No offense but you keep saying that if history has taught us anything, it's to never turn your back on an agressor. How much good has that done? History repeats itself again and again, because man has historically maintained the same flawed attitude... Yeah, what they did was chicken shit...to bring our buildings down, and then run for the hills...So what are doing in Iraq now, looking for Saddam? Last I heard he lived in a cave somewhere else... It reminds of a scene you might see on a school yard full of boys. There's always a bully who rules the yard, you know? He goes around stealing lunch money, shoving people down, and just generally intimidating everyone so he can do whatever he wants. But over to the side, there's a little band of kids who plot against him, and so they decide Tommy should run over there when Billy isn't looking and slug him in the back as hard as he can...so hard it knocks him down and knocks the wind out of him!! And then run like hell!! All these other kids hide him when he comes running back, and then stand around innocently denying any knowledge of where Tommy is..."No, he didn't come over here"...."No, I haven't seen him for a long time" So Billy in his rage goes back over to the yard, and catches Joey snubbing his nose, and laughing at him...and so Billy gets his whole gang and goes and beats Joey up, and they all go around with their chests pushed out telling the rest of the kids in the yard that Billy is the boss now, and if they'll go along with his rules, they can have immunity, and live pretty darn safe from now on. But Billy and his gang didn't count on the fact that Joey had a pretty loyal following too...so now there's full scale uprising in the yard... And every now and then, Tommy jumps out and says 'Neener, neener, neener!! You can't get me?' Do you see what I'm saying? We need the whole staff to come out on the playground and snatch those boys up and tell them, "Now you boys knock it off!! You play nice, and get along and share" And so, for the rest of the year, they might not like each other, or like what they are playing over there, but they stay on their own side of the playground... Too bad it's not that simple, I know...but obviously what we've been doing hasn't worked...history has proved that again and again....