Interesting thoughts Publius.

I will say I found it interesting that your perspectives sees me as being upside down.

Individual based societies seem to have in common a fear-based response to issues that involve ownership. I am not above that same fear-based condition as I have been born in a country that pumps out the same messages of fear. I constantly remind myself everyone shares the same rights as people. It is shared and does not belong to one person... It is every persons. The words, "My rights" are the seeds of trouble. I simply don't have the where with all to break down all the ins and outs of how western society has constructed its rules and provides us with thinking systems promoting hierarchy and class of peoples. (I am sure I am opening a can of worms by not putting that effort forth) I hope it suffices to say, bigger, richer, more powerful, people have a definite advantage over those smaller, poorer, less powerful when it comes to what rights are available to the individual and what "legitimate avenues" people have available to take.

As for Natural liberties? Sounds sensible but what exactly is that? Unless I have a totally wrong notion of what that might mean, I am going to have to say it sounds like slippery words of congress. Outside of your right to live, there are no natural liberties. They are impressions and perspectives. Civilization has its way of combating the wild jungles of a universe with safe virtual structures that give a false sense of security making believable the universe is tamable. It isn't. If we are talking about your right to defend yourself or another, then I feel I must ask you do we put the cart before the horse, or is it the other way around? Do we create people who are individuals and give them a weapon to defend themselves from other individuals. Then create an arms race of sorts to try to gain an edge over other armed people? Creating stronger, more efficient ways to hurt each other in the process. Or do we create a community of people who share and work in the best interest of each member and strike ownership from their minds thereby eliminating the need to protect property. Then instill responsibility and accountability for each member of that society, putting the best interest of people into people and not self. I know.... in a perfect world.... It is far from a perfect world and that is just is the way it is. I for one will not be satisfied with how it is though and will speak out against conditioned thinking when I see it. I acknowledge we must defend ourselves when it comes down to it but believe we must do so with the least amount of force possible. It makes me sad to think we have allowed society to evolve in this way. All these years of occuping the earth and we are still plagued by these same issues and still try to combat them in the same ways. Our individualism has brought us to this point of feeling as though freedom is being lost. More restrictions are implemented daily by governments and administrators to counter the violence incurred from individuals who practice individual rights, as they qualify it, in our societies. It is a vicious circle. Individualism takes away from the feeling and practice of freedom. Have a look around and see it for yourself. It is apparent if you have the eyes to see. Try looking at it this way, in a household with only five members. The state of the house is quite different when each member is in it for themselves acting in self interest as individuals when compared to the same house where each member takes responsibility for one another and serves the best interest of all members primarily. I favor the house where the members share as one and not act as individuals. Shared accountability offers greater freedom due to less time and energy committed to conflict.

Justice and Freedom exists in the mind only. I took a few criminology courses in university and recognize the importance in today's world of having a system in place to protect individual rights. Legitimate avenues to settle differences between peoples. I also learned that it is subject to many flaws as it is impossible to give justice to all. It comes down to what ever party has the largest representation in that society, builds the norm. Those less represented must conform to what the larger group denotes as reasonable behavior in order to best be served by justice. I feel strongly that Freedom and Justice are emotional issues, and most likely the things I am writing will cause emotional disturbances. It isn't my goal to upset anyone. I am hoping all I am doing is giving some other ways to look at things. Like I originally asked, if we try to understand why our opinions are formed and where they come from, we may better understand ourselves and why we emotionally react to the world around us.

No one is free. We are all slave in this world who have been given the notion that you we free to decide. It is more like the notion of freedom has created slaves to the mob and an intellectual bantamweights. Ultimately, our only freedom is to try to live or allow yourself to die. Everything between is survival. I have said a number of times, freedom is in the mind...an attitude. I am up against life times of conditioning and normalizing of behavior when I stand against the notion of what freedom is and individual rights are. This I know all too well. People will not easily give up the idea of ownership of wealth and property. Nor will they easily respond with compassion in the face of rage.

My perspectives are not incorrect. Nor are anyone elses. They are views and views alone. Ideas if you will. None of us are without the effects of the influences of our lives and that will always show in our perspectives. By disagreeing with me Publius, you have legitimized my argument. And, by my responding to you, I have legitimized yours. Both are thereby legitimate. That makes for good discussion. Thank you for that.

Peace
Scott