Not All Vegans Are From the Planet (Whoops, I Mean Star!) Vega

Thanks so much. Unfortunately I just discovered this covey of comments on my vegan article (been a bit busy).

The great thing about being human is that we can fight our basic natures, especially when it results in something positive: like becoming vegan. As for polygamy, you're probably right there too, although in fairness, I think women should have lots of mates, not just vice versa a la Mormon model. I also feel that people are omnisexual but most of us hide it because society demands it. But that's another article! Ciao for now.

So you and I live in two of the three least polluted cities in the U.S. (Santa Fe, Honolulu and Duluth. I'll bet there are lots of vegans in Honolulu (and maybe even Duluth).

Anyway, I digress. Mahalo for your great comment. I wish I had seen it sooner.

Thanks! Usually my vegan posts get ignored or dissed. This is a refreshing change.

"Usually my vegan posts get ignored or dissed." Since you said it, i will not disappoint you. At the outset let me admit that you wrote a good article and i also appreciate the fact that you have chosen a different way to promote ethical treatment of animals unlike Pamela Anderson and many others like her. The content, i am not sure of.

we have a saying in Hindi, "sau, sau Chuhe kha Ke Billi Haj ko Chali" which means that, after eating a hundreds of rats the cat is going to a pilgrimage. You spent the best years of life being 'omnivorous' and now that you have reached an age where your system can barely handle the high caloric stuff, you have turned vegan. Everyone is doing it at that age and not because they like it but because they are forced to. Let the youngsters enjoy the good stuff. There are enough worries about treatment of humans to consider before people shift their eyes to animals. Or Maybe the Human rights thing is old fad and no vacancies are there.

You also talked about your lack of courage of conviction regarding "eating the flesh, body secretions (i.e., dairy) and eggs of bioengineered animals raised and killed in egregious conditions had bothered me for many years". Does it mean that if someone provides you a normally conceived chicken reared in hygienic conditions at home, you would not have a problem eating it?

And what was that about rescued cats and dogs. You feel bad about eating chicken, pork and mutton and go and adopt rescued cats and dogs. It's like another dialogue from a hindi movie where Amitabh Bachchan is lamenting about the absence of his love and says something (i'll spare you the actual dialogue)which means, if his ladylove does not arrive by the time the candle extinguishes, he will start hating candles forever.

Being a vegan is a political statement, but the politics should not get too far. We already have the ethical vegans and the non ethical vegans. Very soon we will have a right wing and the left wing vegans. And then maybe a pseudo ethical vegan and then a contemporary pseudo ethical vegan and don't forget a contemporary rationalist pseudo ethical vegan. It goes on...

"Does a vegan diet provide all the nutrition you need? Yes, if, as with any other dietary program, you choose your foods wisely", it's a proven fact that a pure vegan diet deprived of dairy or dairy products can never provide the daily dose of calcium that is required by the body. Are you saying that children don't need milk to grow up?

"Each vegan has to draw the line for himself as to how far he will go" Very convenient and flexible. Here, on this day i become a Vegan who draws the line at eggs, chicken, mutton, fish, prawns, pork and maybe lobsters once in a month. And is it alright if i don't adopt any animals?

Have I missed a new fad of blaming everything in this world on Global Warming. If everyone eats grass and vegan products there will be no vegetation left. In my mind the Globe will warm much faster without green vegetation than a few chicken lesser.

If you'd rather die of hunger than touch a piece of chicken, maybe your courage of conviction has finally arrived.

claim to have become a "total pure vegan" and will not allow you to have eggs, chicken or any other non-veg item at home, but these same people have no qualms in having it outside in a restaurant (obviously someone else is footing the bill)!

I would also like to mention here that I've met many such "oldies" who have lived their life to the prime - "Been there, Done that". But, now that they are old and obviously can't digest the "fat and cholesterol" anymore, conveniently start forcing and preaching all the others around them to mend their ways and become "holiness" personified!

Can you show the "research" that you mentioned which indicates that human beings have evolved to eat only vegan diet with a "little/optional animal content"? Where did you get this?

The presence of canines in the mouth is for the sole purpose of tearing meat, be it raw or cooked! The canines in a vegetarian person's oral cavity would remain sharp for longer duration than the ones in the people who eat meat, on the other hand! The digestive system, is perfectly capable of digesting meat in human beings, but, like you rightly said, it has evolved over a period of years to handle only cooked products simply because, we are eating cooked food! I know of many people who eat "raw" fish here in India to treat asthma! So, guess, it's getting digested, after all!

And finally, another Hindi Dialogue:

"Ghoda ghas se dosti karega to khayega kya?" Meaning: If the horse befriends grass then what will he eat?

Try selling the "ethical" vegan diet to a tiger or a lion!

Assuming that you're from India, I find it sad that a country like India, which has a wise and long-standing tradition of vegetarianism, now seems to be going the way of the westernized world by promoting the eating of meat as a sign of affluence. No more sacred cows. That will inevitably lead to bad health and obesity, because historically, that has proved true.

As for studies that show that humans were meant to eat mostly vegetal matter, try the China Study (easily googled) as an example. “You may already know that high cholesterol is a widely recognized risk factor for heart disease. But the China Study found that higher blood cholesterol levels were also consistently associated with diabetes and many cancers.”(from the China Study report) Now, the China Study has, of course, been ridiculed and demeaned by those who don’t like what it says about diet. But it’s there for anybody to examine.

The size and shape of teeth is not really a great way to assess dietary preferences, even though I mentioned it in passing in my article. For example, baboons have very large canines, but they are mostly vegetarian although they are known to eat small animals and insects. As for human canines, their size is small compared to those of what I call true meat eaters. Wildcats, for example, have much longer canines. I just took a look at my own canines, and they’re about the same length as my other teeth, and definitely not sharp. And I've never been very good at tearing meat apart, especially raw meat, which is what wildcats and other real carnivores do on a regular basis. On the other hand, humans have a pretty long digestive tract compared to, again, wildcats. Animal protein does not require a lot of digestion; vegetal matter does. That indicates to me that we were intended to eat a largely vegetal diet.

There are many other studies that show the dangers of a high-animal diet—again, google away--and it’s become a truism that the more McWesternized a country becomes, the more cases of cancer, diabetes, heart disease, dementia, and other degenerative diseases there are, not to mention obesity. If you worship the Holy Trinity of meat, dairy and eggs, you’re in trouble. I’m not saying that being vegan automatically makes you healthier than a meat eater. As with any diet, it depends on what you eat. If you’re a “chemical” or junk food vegan, you’ll probably look and feel a lot like your meat-eating friends. Transfats are vegan, and they’re highly dangerous. They’re in a lot of technically vegan foods, and you have to read the labels to avoid them. If you eat too many “white carbs”: refined sugar and grains, you may be a candidate for “The Biggest Loser”. Nowadays there’s almost as much vegan as non-vegan junk food out there—you can buy chemical vegan cookies loaded with transfats and polysyllabic synthetic chemicals at any supermarket—and if you eat a lot of that stuff, you’ll be at the very least unhealthy and probably fat too. I know some fat vegans.

I would recommend an excellent book by John Robbins called “Healthy at 100” that talks about four cultures in particular that are largely vegetarian and are also the healthiest and longest-lived on the planet. These include the traditional Okinawans (the modern Okinawans unfortunately suffer from typical western diseases because of their diet of affluence; the Abkhasians of Russia, Vilcacambans of Ecuador, and the Hunzas of Pakistan. Not only do these people eat very low quantities of animal products, they also don’t consume typical western “junk food”. Mostly their diets consist of vegetables, fruits, legumes, soy and whole grains, with small quantities of meat and fish and some dairy. In the case of the Vilcabambans and Hunzas, only 1% of their diet comes from animal foods. When they die, they die of true old age, not of heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc. In contrast, westerners just assume that if they’re lucky and manage to live to a ripe old age, they’ll be riddled by disease and taking tons of meds to stay alive. And this scenario has become the norm, especially in the U.S. Nursing homes are crowded with these unfortunate people. Sadly, this is exactly what’s happening to my mother, who’s been a life-long heavy meat, dairy and egg consumer.

I don't know about your horse, but I'm a great fan of animals AND vegetables. I just don't eat animals. You don't have to make your food into your enemy.

"Assuming that you're from India, I find it sad that a country like India, which has a wise and long-standing tradition of vegetarianism, now seems to be going the way of the westernized world by promoting the eating of meat as a sign of affluence. No more sacred cows. That will inevitably lead to bad health and obesity, because historically, that has proved true."

First of all let me confirm that yes, I am very much an Indian and from the north, although I've spent all my time down south west! I think you have everything wrong. India does not have a "wise and long standing tradition of vegetarianism" as you seem to claim. You don't seem to know much about the dietary habits of Indians. Yes, i agree that our ways of cooking food (traditionally) be it veg or nonveg, is definitely far more nutritional and better as far as health wise is concerned! That is the prime reason that if you follow a proper Indian way of cooking and eating, you may not gain a lot of weight and also can remain fit and healthy, (veg or nonveg). Why are you mixing up "westernized" food and Indian food? I don't get it? Are you saying that anyone who is eating meat is a "westerner" or Foriegner"? Weird! People develop eating habits depending on the geographical location and terrain that they are surrounded with. The Coastal areas of India eat a lot of fish as their staple diet as they survive on fishing as their main source of income. then there are "rice" eaters in the south and east and "Chapatti" eaters in the north. Hope you get the drift?

What did you say about the cow? For your information, Cows are considered sacred only by the "Hindu" population. So, they are the only ones worried about not eating the cow. the Hindus eat meat and poultry and eggs etc, without much qualms, except for the Brahmins!

Let me remind you that our country being ruled by the Britishers and other foreigners left behind their religion and eating habits! The Christians (converted from hindus and other religions)in India eat Beef, pork and mutton with again no qualms. I myself, have stayed in Goa for 10 years and have eaten beef, pork mutton etc...! For them its their staple diet! They do not eat many vegetables.

Let me also tell you for a fact that while I was staying in the hostel there, The so called "total vegetarians" who came in the first year to the hostel were forced (within two days) to convert to eating everything under the sun! and let me point out that they were not forced by anyone or "ragged" as you may be thinking, but genuinely were feeling that they were not getting enough nutrition with the vegetarian diet and so started on raw eggs in their milk and even chicken! They wouldn't have survived if they had continued with their "veg" diet!

The "China Study" you talk about, I am not interested to know about it! The westerners or USA in particular don't have very healthy eating habits, everybody knows it for a fact! Nothing to prove here. They eat junk food, live on pizzas, burgers, french fries, sausages etc cooked in animal fat. Americans were the first to come out with canned and preserved foods. That itself is not very healthy. Obviously, they are going to suffer from obesity and all associated diseases! My own sister who was healthy while staying in India, put on weight the moment she stepped into USA.

Ultimately, it is not Veg or non veg diet that makes you gain or lose weight, its how you cook and then how much you eat of each is important, and of course, how much exercise you do in a day that determines whether you will become "fat" or remain "thin"! It has nothing to do with "vegetarianism" as you seem to be implying!

My father, is also an old man, in his 70's. He has always eaten Non veg diet. He has diabetes and blood pressure. But, it is under control for the past 40 years or so! he still eats whatever he wants, but, sees that he exercises diligently everyday and also does Yoga for one hour in the mornings daily. He has had two operations for cataract also. No problem! Just an example!

I just read your other comments, and want to correct you again about the statement you made on eating "suplements" daily. I would not advice this even to my patients! Taking supplements in the form of vitamins or calcium or anything else should NOT be on a daily basis. They have their own side effects, besides, how do you know how much to take and when to stop? Do not take any supplements without first consulting your DOCTOR. That is my advise!

Supplements are taken only when the body is found to be deficient in the particular vitamin or mineral or anything else.(iron, zinc, calcium, minerals, vitamins, proteins)etc...!

Just a few comments on your many because I'm deep into spring cleaning and just taking a back break--STAY AWAY from doctors (i.e., MD's) when it comes to nutrition and vitamin/mineral supplements because in my long experience, most of them don't know sh*t about them. A good diet is not emphasized in medical school, to say the least, certainly not in American medical schools! Doctors basically are taught to treat diseases (and injuries) once they occur, not to prevent them. And as we all should realize by now, proper nutrition (and proper supplementation) is vital for good health. You hardly need an advanced degree to figure out that a multivitamin/mineral tablet is great insurance against days when you may not have the opportunity to eat properly.

Your father has had diabetes and blood pressure problems for 40 years?! And you think that's OK? Type I diabetes is a different story, but if he has Type II adult-onset diabetes plus hypertension, it sounds like he's been been eating the wrong foods for a long time. The Yoga sounds good, though. Probably helps lower his blood pressure.

Actually I do know quite a bit about India, although I've never been there personally (it's on my top ten list whenever I get a year or two off to spend traveling). My husband traveled there extensively and has told me a lot about it. We also eat at Indian restaurants quite often. Yes, of course I know that cows are sacred to Hindus in particular(but not too many of them anymore, either). I know that many Indians eat meat and fish and dairy and other animal products, they're not all vegheads, that Ayurveda, which is not a veggie philosophy, is popular there, but animal products tend to be eaten on a regular basis by more affluent Indians, not by its poor people. And because of outsourcing of jobs from the U.S. and a burgeoning computer industry in India, among other economic factors, more jobs for more people has lead to those people having money to blow on what I call western food, i.e., fast food, i.e., junk food, meaning pizza, McBurgers, KFC, the kind of crapola that's now becoming popular even in India. I doubt that your sister has to leave India anymore to encounter the typical western diet.

BTW, don't put words in my mouth. I did not say that a veggie diet makes you thin. In fact, I said I know some fat vegans, and that eating a lot of crap, i.e., refined carbs and sugars in the case of vegans, is bad. I absolutely agree with you that quantity counts, no matter what you eat, and exercise. See, we agree on something!

And, young lady, I've survived very nicely for almost nine years on a vegan diet. Where do you get the idea that vegans don't get enough nutrition to live? That's just weird. Read the China Study and you may learn something. As a responsible health practitioner, you owe it to yourself. Maybe it's just my imagination, but it seems to me that you're hostile to veganism--if so, that's very unscientific of you. You should have an open mind about these matters.

I need to get back to business, so keep talking among yourselves, kids, and I shall return and deal with the rest later.

Sorry to disturb your spring cleaning! Whatever you said is so "TYPICAL" of Americans. So full of themselves. You have never been to India and sorry to say that again you know CRAP about India and its eating habits. The poor people also eat meat even more so! Where did you get this CRAP idea that only the affluent population of India eats meat?

I won't bother replying to the rest because obviously you have the ALL American "I am right" attitude!

BTW, I have nothing against "Vegetarianism" and totally agree that vegetables and fruits are very good for health and everybody should have them. All I am saying is that I believe in a Balanced diet. Which is what all humans should have.

I have nothing against animals either. In fact I love all animals. But, nature is cruel. Look around you. The Big fish eat small fish is the way ecology survives. I am but a small part of the chain. Can't help it if I prefer eating animals in my diet. It's nature!

As for supplements are concerned, DON"T mislead the public. You may not believe doctors! That's your personal opinion!

My sister has settled in the states and is battling with her weight!

My father is totally fit and he was in the Indian Navy. There's nothing wrong with him. You should worry about your own mother! Thanks!

Have a nice day. Happy Spring Cleaning. Don't bother replying!

Wow! I seem to have touched on a rawnerve, rawnak! I wonder why? If your father has had diabetes and hypertension for 40 years, how in the world can you say there's nothing wrong with him? Because he's taking toxic drugs that keep him "normal"? Again, weird.

BTW, regarding your supplement comment, here's a page that better explains calcium and vegans:

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/calcium.htm

But I imagine you'll just wrinkle your nose and shrug it off, like the China Study, because it doesn't fit into your preconceived understanding of the world. Too bad.

What is it with you and Americans? I've lived in (not just traveled to) Africa, Europe and Mexico, and I consider myself a citizen of the world rather than an ugly American. I haven't been to India, but I can still acquire an understanding of what's going on there. For example, the poor eat more plant-based foods and fewer animal-based foods than the rich in India, one of the reasons being that meat isn't cheap. It's a simple fact.

Nature is indeed cruel, as you say, but humans have largely stepped out of the natural world, what with factory farming and all their technology. So the fish-eat-fish analogy that even the charming Benjamin Franklin used to explain his way out of being a veghead doesn't fly (or swim, as it were!). But, nice try! ;)

Frankly, Doctor Rawnak or Kanwar or whatever your name is, I really don't care what you put in your mouth, as long as you're aware of what it can do to you (and the planet). My humble job is to enlighten people as to the other choices they have, like veganism, and I hope I've done it in some small measure with you, but I'm not holding my breath!

Namaste. And my sympathies to your sister. Tell her that even in America one has a choice to be thin or fat or somewhere in between. It's the land of opportunity, after all.

Just a few comments on your many because I'm deep into spring cleaning and just taking a back break--STAY AWAY from doctors (i.e., MD's) when it comes to nutrition and vitamin/mineral supplements because in my long experience, most of them don't know sh*t about them. A good diet is not emphasized in medical school, to say the least, certainly not in American medical schools! Doctors basically are taught to treat diseases (and injuries) once they occur, not to prevent them. And as we all should realize by now, proper nutrition (and proper supplementation) is vital for good health. You hardly need an advanced degree to figure out that a multivitamin/mineral tablet is great insurance against days when you may not have the opportunity to eat properly.

Your father has had diabetes and blood pressure problems for 40 years?! And you think that's OK? Type I diabetes is a different story, but if he has Type II adult-onset diabetes plus hypertension, it sounds like he's been been eating the wrong foods for a long time. The Yoga sounds good, though. Probably helps lower his blood pressure.

Actually I do know quite a bit about India, although I've never been there personally (it's on my top ten list whenever I get a year or two off to spend traveling). My husband traveled there extensively and has told me a lot about it. We also eat at Indian restaurants quite often. Yes, of course I know that cows are sacred to Hindus in particular(but not too many of them anymore, either). I know that many Indians eat meat and fish and dairy and other animal products, they're not all vegheads, that Ayurveda, which is not a veggie philosophy, is popular there, but animal products tend to be eaten on a regular basis by more affluent Indians, not by its poor people. And because of outsourcing of jobs from the U.S. and a burgeoning computer industry in India, among other economic factors, more jobs for more people has lead to those people having money to blow on what I call western food, i.e., fast food, i.e., junk food, meaning pizza, McBurgers, KFC, the kind of crapola that's now becoming popular even in India. I doubt that your sister has to leave India anymore to encounter the typical western diet.

BTW, don't put words in my mouth. I did not say that a veggie diet makes you thin. In fact, I said I know some fat vegans, and that eating a lot of crap, i.e., refined carbs and sugars in the case of vegans, is bad. I absolutely agree with you that quantity counts, no matter what you eat, and exercise. See, we agree on something!

And, young lady, I've survived very nicely for almost nine years on a vegan diet. Where do you get the idea that vegans don't get enough nutrition to live? That's just weird. Read the China Study and you may learn something. As a responsible health practitioner, you owe it to yourself. Maybe it's just my imagination, but it seems to me that you're hostile to veganism--if so, that's very unscientific of you. You should have an open mind about these matters.

I need to get back to business, so keep talking among yourselves, kids, and I shall return and deal with the rest later.

Thank you for your compliment and comments. Let me say that I'm a bit surprised that an East Indian is dissing my veganism-but hey, I'll let that pass. I would like to thank you (and the next commenter, who so graciously dissed my nasty habit also) because I was beginning to feel like I'd fallen into an alternate universe where vegans are treated like just another variation of normal, which they are.

As for reaching an age where my body can't take cholesterol or whatever, 50 isn't ancient, and 59 isn't either (which is what I turned a couple weeks ago), and my digestive system is working just fine, thank you. I enjoy eating. I've always been the type that lives to eat rather than vice versa. If I couldn't stand what I was eating and felt deprived in any way, I couldn't do what I'm doing. One of my favorite things to eat remains chocolate, and I try to have some every single day (I've always preferred the dark European kind without the mammary secretions). Yum.

As for complaining that I should worry about human rights, not animal rights, that's a specious argument, but in fact, I worry about both: one CAN chew gum and walk at the same time. Try it some time. I am a dedicated liberal/socialist who's also an animal rights advocate. I also agree with Jane Goodall, who once said, when she was asked why she didn't devote more time to humans rather than animals, that there are far fewer people who stand up for animals than for humans, and so animals can use all the help they can get. And really, we're all related, we're ALL animals, we're all trying to survive on this planet, so what really is the difference?

As for your question about whether I would eat a so-called humanely raised chicken, the answer is no. Unless there was nothing else available to eat (see my comment further on).

The rescued cats and dogs issue you bring up I really don't get. My view is that there are millions of dogs and cats who need homes, thanks to puppy and kitten mills and other irresponsible breeders and ignorant pet owners who don't have their pets spayed or neutered, and society has a responsibility to care for them. Unfortunately, many are killed every year because not enough people are willing to take them in. So what have you done for a homeless cat or dog lately?

As for calcium, you're clearly a hapless victim of the Milk Lobby. You can absolutely get adequate calcium on a vegan diet. Do the research and get back to me.

I don't know too many vegans who eat eggs, chicken, fish, etc. Now you're just being silly. Ditto with your remark about running out of "grass" and other vegetation. Tee hee. (I give you props for a slight sense of humor).

If I were stuck in a situation where I had nothing to eat but chicken or die of starvation, I would eat the chicken. Even Ingrid Newkirk wouldn't have a problem with that one. Being a vegan isn't the same as being suicidal.

"Let me say that I'm a bit surprised that an East Indian is dissing my veganism" - :-)i dont think taprial is east indian! and an east indian will in all likelihood "diss" veganism :-), bcos as far as i know (being frm east india myself) that we love our mutton and fish! - but that doesnt change my initial opinion on ur article. its good and i seriously am considering the pros and cons of veganism - having gone to considerable trouble to identify a healthy source of dairy items for my children (and still not succeeding)...

Hi again,

By "East Indian", I mean a person from India, not an American Indian (i.e., Native American) or someone from the East Indies. That's how Americans distinguish between the two, ever since Columbus muddied the waters.

Be that as it may, I'm happy to hear that you're investigating the possibility of veganism. I can only say that I feel in good shape almost nine years on, and I wasn't convinced myself that it was healthy at the outset.

As for your kids, I haven't had to worry about that issue, and in fact, if I had kids as a vegan, I would probably give them a clear choice in the matter, and if they wanted to go for it after learning as much about veganism as possible, that's fine. As with my pets, I don't think it's a good idea to impose one's dietary preferences, religion, politics or anything else on others, even if they're your dependents. I don't know what's available in the way of dairy alternatives where you live, but soy and rice milk as well as soy yogurt and cheese are available in my area. They're all good calcium sources. Not to mention tofu, which is loaded with it.

"Option" Rather than an "Eliminational Rule"

That's what champaignedreams was thinking it was ...
Disagree? Join to Defend Your Honor!

I don't know that it's exactly "new," but it's something St. Paul suggests Christian ministers do: "Don't descend into argument, telling people how it is that they're as wrong as they are; but simply continue to be right, never-minding their accusations of wrongness and of their own rightness." (Okay, that's not an exact quote; but Paul is a distant uncle of mine!)

The point is that Truth doesn't need to 'destroy' to be true.
Disagree? Join to Defend Your Honor!

That's a nifty quote. St. Paul, huh? Yeah, it's easy to be self-righteous and turn the world into Us versus Them, and I'm as guilty of that as the next xombie. And actually, my basic argument is simply that veganism is better for the health of the world and the individual, although it might not be strictly "natural". But then, what is natural, these days? Is eating bioengineered meat from domesticated cows, chickens, pigs, sheep, i.e., man-made animals that are not found in nature, natural? Is eating fast food "natural"? Of course not, but people do it all the time, so why the problem with "unnatural" veganism? Go figure. Anyway, thanks, and say hi to the rowdy AC gang. Haven't posted there in ages.

Thank you veghead, for noticing my slight sense of humour. I thought it had vegetated.

First of all some clarifications. I am an Indian, yes. But East Indian? I presume you think, that everything Indian belongs to the East India Company. The british left about 60 years back. Of course, if you are looking at a map, India is on the east, but since the earth is round, if you look the other way and then I become a West indian. Actually I am neither. I am a north Indian. In any case the east indians i.e. indians from the eastern part of the country are far more likely to diss veganism since fish happens to be their staple diet and they can't live without it. In fact, without fish they are like a fish out of water.

The primary issue here is that even though you have the luxury of living to eat, the non vegans are expected to give up on their likings, just because you have found your calling in the ethical treatment of animals.

I don't eat chocolate. That is my contribution to reduce Global warming. Neither do I chew gum. Ditto.

I am sure it was someone like Jane Goodall, who in her quest to do something different to get noticed, domesticated perfectly wild and normal cats and dogs under the garb of helping them out. As a result, we have to deal with the excess inflated numbers now. The ethical thing to do would be to let them be, wild and normal. You must have heard about the rabbit problem of Australia.

Actually, I, did not get the issue of cats and dogs. If you are turning or have turned vegan and have a soft corner towards the treatment of animals you should have adopted some chicken, goats or cows. Where do the cats and dogs figure from?

Now the Research:
First of all I am convinced that anyone without a university degree in nutrition and diets should not even attempt to be a Vegan. Rich people who can afford to hire a nutritionist as also afford to buy exotic stuff like nori, wakame, and dulse are welcome.

The following key nutrients may be lacking in a vegetarian diet:

iron - Girls need to be particularly concerned about getting adequate iron because some iron is lost during menstruation. Some girls who are vegetarians may not get adequate iron from vegetable sources and they may require a daily supplement.

calcium - Because women have a greater risk for getting osteoporosis (weak bones) as adults, it's particularly important for vegetarian girls to make sure they get enough calcium. Again, taking a supplement may be necessary to ensure this.

protein - Without adequate amounts of each of the 9 essential amino acids, some vegetarians experience “brain fog,” memory loss, tiredness, moodiness due to blood sugar highs and lows, lack of motivation, and poor performance at work or during exercise.

vitamin D - Vitamin D is present in oily fish, eggs and dairy products in variable amounts. It is not found in plant foods. However, vegans can obtain vitamin D from vegetable margarines, some soya milks and certain other foods which are fortified with the vitamin.

vitamin B12 - is found primarily in meat, dairy products and eggs and is absent from plant foods. Considerable research has been carried out into possible plant sources of B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds and algae such as spirulina have all been proposed as containing significant amounts of B12. However, the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely to be in a form unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon as safe sources.

Zinc - If you're not eating dairy foods, make sure fortified cereals, dried beans, nuts, and soy products like tofu and tempeh are part of your diet so you can meet your daily requirement for this important mineral.

iodine - Milk is the primary source of iodine in any diet and studies have indicated some vegans may have a low iodine intake.

Animal products are the best suppliers of the above. The only way to overcome the deficiency for vegans is to eat fortified processed food or take supplements.

The all pervading alternative is Soy. The man who sells it must be rich by now, all thanks to Vegans. The ability of soy protein to decrease testosterone levels is well demonstrated. One study displayed a 76% decrease in testosterone production in men, after ingestion of soy protein over a brief period of time. Unless one wants a feminine looking boy I would recommend against being a vegan. The hormone imbalance is equally prevalent in women also.

There is abundant evidence that some of the isoflavones found in soy, including genistein and equol, a metabolite of daidzen, demonstrate toxicity in estrogen sensitive tissues and in the thyroid.

Fortified rice/soy drinks and other foods that vegetarians are often directed towards can also be a mixed blessing. The sources of the vitamins and minerals in these foods are rarely listed and may be from natural or, more usually, from cheap manufactured sources that are difficult for the body to absorb and make use of - so you receive hardly any useable nutrition from them.

One of the reasons that many health professionals consider a vegetarian diet unhealthy is the routine dependence on carbohydrates to fill the gap left by meat and other animal-based foods. Younger vegetarians are especially likely to lean on bread, cereal grains, sugary fruits, and desserts to fill them up while the rest of their family is eating meat or poultry, but adult vegetarians can fall prey to carbohydrate dependency and addiction as well. That may explain your habit of a chocolate a day.

“Being a vegan isn't the same as being suicidal.” Ma’am, methinks, You are losing Your Courage of Conviction again.

For the East Indian issue, see the rawnak redux comment. You're getting way too technical about the geography of your country, and I'm speaking from the POV of an American.

The domestication of dogs and cats was kind of a mutual pact, from what I've read. Some researchers even think that dogs and cats volunteered to be domesticated because they got good stuff from humans, like food and warmth and companionship. Whatever you happen to believe: that humans forced domestication on certain animals, or that the animals themselves cooperated--it's become a huge problem because, just like human overpopulation, there are far too many dogs, cats, pigs, cows, chickens, etc., etc., in the world and far too few wild animals. There is no balance anymore between wild and domesticated. And if it makes you feel better, I had chickens, a duck, goats and a horse when I was in the Peace Corps, as well as some wild animals. Some of them I ate. I have a limit as to how many rescued animals I can care for, and right now, it's eight dogs and cats.

Thanks for the listing of various nutrients. Potential vegans should know what the concerns are, e.g., adequate amounts of calcium, zinc, B12, etc., as you mention. Knowledge is power. BTW, I happen to be a big fan of seaweed, and where I live, I can go to most cheap Chinese buffets and find it, either wrapped around sushi or in a dish by itself.

Your point about kids eating the wrong vegan foods is absolutely right. Parents have to educate their kids to eat healthy vegan food, not junk vegan food (again, see my comments to rawnak above), because you can easily make yourself sick on vegan junk food, just as you can with McBurgers and McShakes.

Another thing I want to mention is that I've always (even before I went vegan) believed in vitamin/mineral supplements, and I still do. Nobody eats the right amount of every nutrient every single day, because we're all busy and we don't always pay attention. So I would recommend that everyone, vegan or not, take at least a daily multivitamin/mineral supplement to make up for any nutritional shortcomings. There are vegan supplements available also, and you can find reasonably priced supplements at any supermarket or pharmacy.

For the soy issue, I direct you to John Robbins' writings about it. I'm sure you can google his excellent article on soy myths and facts.

Anyway, thanks for your interest. And hey, maybe a little chocolate in your life would increase your vegetating sense of humor! Try to buy the Fair Trade organic kind, though. ;)

You are getting confused again, your explanation of East Indian issue is in mamamia7 redux and not rawnak redux. In fact there is no rawnak redux comment, or maybe, it exists just like some other notions and beliefs prevailing in planet whoops, I mean Star! Vega. Just that, I can’t see it. Getting too technical again? I am a techie, just can’t help it.

Your POV statement as well as your explanation of the East Indian issue in the ‘mamamia7 redux’ comment (and not the rawnak redux comment) reminds me of a frog in the well. ( Les, if you are reading this, this time it is not mine)

Peace Corps; hmmm..so that’s where you get your philosophy of unsolicited help.

“The domestication of dogs and cats was kind of a mutual pact.” I wonder who drew the contract, the man or the dog. or was it more like the mutual pact between George Bush and Saddam Hussain? Fact is that the man needed the dogs to overcome depletion of his own hunting instincts or perhaps it was sheer laziness. The wolves were used because of their natural hunting skills and also for their exceptional sense of smell and sight. The wolf would seek out, track and hunt down the prey. It helped the man, that the wolf was exposed to the Clear and Imminent Danger first and the man had the option of continuing with the attack depending on the initial success of the wolf. The dogs are descendants of wolves. Man again for his selfish gains used the wolves /dogs in different environments and purposes and that is how the different breeds came in. The lap dogs for instance came into being because the Romans thought that it’s warmth was a cure for stomach aches. The human stomach and not the dog’s.

Similarly a mutual pact contract was drawn out by the cats because of their exceptional value towards Rodent control.

I presume that your eight cats and dogs have been neutered, which you are in favor of (namaste taprial comment). If yes, was it with the express concurrence of the animal in question, or is it the Peace Corps philosophy again. The humans have a basic and fundamental right to procreate and how are you helping the animals by taking away their right to procreate and evolve. How are you helping them by taking away their natural survival skills by making them so dependent on yourself that the poor animal will not survive for long by itself? Oh!, that won’t be required since you have taken the action to ensure that your dog or cat is the last one from it’s family. The humans are spending large amounts of research and money to bear offsprings. Fertility clinics, some of them government sponsored, are there to ‘help’ the people to have a continued existence of their family name. How are you helping the cats and dogs by depriving them of their natural urge to procreate and their paternal/ maternal instincts?

Now about the McBurgers and the Mcshakes. Come on, Think beyond America. Fast Junk food is America’s contribution and I must say they have succeeded to a large extent in the ‘occupation’ of sufficient territory in markets world over. We also have fast food, perfectly healthy fast food, but have failed, in the face of the American might, to promote them sufficiently. The Peace Corps again has largely contributed to President Kennedy’s charter of “Helping promote a better understanding of Americans on the part of the people served.”

I will not talk about the nutrition part since Rawnak has already talked about it. I agree with her and she should know, she has studied the subject.

John Robbins, first of all is the only heir to the Baskin Robbins empire and has been and will continue to have enough money to indulge himself in nutritionists and dieticians ensuring that he has all the nutrients going into his body without endangering it. Unfortunately that is not the case with millions of other people “preached” into veganism. Secondly he is a vegetarian. If you remove soy from his diet he will have no logic and rationale to continue promoting veganism, an issue which earns him millions of dollars in book sales and keynote speaking.

Soy production takes place in huge units, an intensive industrial monoculture using large amounts of pesticides. This has led to large scale destruction of important ecosystems, erosion and depletion of the soil, water and soil pollution, and damage to the means of existence of local communities. Are you not concerned about the degradation of the eco system. By 2004, nearly three million acres of rainforest had been converted to soy agriculture mainly because of massive investments by U.S. agri-business. Soy is now the leading cause of Amazon deforestation.

Your friend John Robbins has this to say, “I prefer the brands made with whole soybeans, and avoid those made with soy protein or soymilk powder." Robbins is right about that. The process by which soy proteins are extracted from the whole bean often requires dangerous chemicals, and hazardous substances can find their way into factory-produced soymilk.

If you have noticed the letters DE in your soy product carton, it means that dairy equipment has been used. The fact is soy milk is being processed by Dairy manufacturers. Maybe we should again consider who is fooling whom. If you still want to buy the factory-made version of soymilk you end up drinking an unknown product containing emulsifiers, preservatives, flavor enhancers, additives, and artificial whiteners. Hey, it’s your choice.

I don’t know the exact prices of the two but if I have the liberty of approximation, the wholesale cost of soybeans that make one quart of soymilk is about one-fiftieth of the cow's milk, yet, both products sell for the same price. What would John Robbins recommend in such a case?

As for chocolate maybe some day I will be trying it out, but it would have to be the milk variety. I still haven’t got over my obsession with the mammaries.

I see you've been actively researching. Excellent. Glad you're so taken by this topic.

Let's see, where do I start? The contract between dogs/cats and humans and who drew it up? I think that issue may never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Either the wolves and wildcats came to us because we helped them get prey, or we invited them in because they were better hunters than we were, or we all just ran ecstatically into each other's arms in a mutual exploitation agreement. Who knows? I happen to know a lot about wolves and wolf dogs because there are a group of wolf dogs living right next door to me, and it's been interesting to observe over the years how "wolfie" versus "doggie" they behave. They're definitely different than my dogs. For one thing, they don't bark, they howl. And they can also be quite dangerous because of the large percentage of wildness in them. I feel bad for them because they're neither dog nor wolf but in some kind of uncomfortable evolutionary twilight zone, but my neighbor is a real nutjob and thinks having wolf dogs is cool.

As for the breeding of dogs, it depresses me also. I like mutts, and I have a real problem with breeders, whether they're "responsible" or backyard breeders or puppy mill breeders. I hold them responsible for the millions of dogs and cats that are euthanized in my country every year because there are just too many of them to all find homes.

And yes, absolutely, all my dogs and cats are spayed/neutered because I believe that it's better to prevent the births of puppies and kittens who will never find homes than to allow them to be born and then have to be killed at shelters or die slowly on the streets. That's far crueler. I've seen piles of euthanized dogs and cats at the clinic of my animal shelter. That's no way to treat them. And BTW, if animals don't have the gonads to procreate, they're not going to sit around and feel "frustrated" by the lack of a sex drive or litters to care for--you're anthropomorphizing animals if you think they are.

I also believe that there far too many humans on the planet and it makes me crazy that people are going to fertility clinics to get pregnant, thus making the human population problem even larger. Instead, why don't they adopt all the millions of homeless kids who need homes? I would favor the equivalent of spay/neuter for humans too. Or at least universal free birth control and abortion offered to anyone who asks for it. Why do humans think they can breed and breed and breed while more and more wild species go extinct every day because humans are taking over their territories? It's so arrogant.

As for soy, it's a huge topic, and I agree that soy meat analogues should be eaten sparingly. I try to eat whole, non-GMO tofu and soy milk, and I'm aware of the problems with soy production, as well as big problems with plant-based food production in general. Buying local helps. The world ain't perfect, taprial, and we all have to compromise our principles to some extent to survive. I try to do that as little as possible. But there are so many plant-based foods, especially when compared to animal-based foods, that I as a vegan will never run out of food choices. Veganism has opened up new gustatory worlds for me. And soy is just one tiny part of all the plant-based foods out there. It's not like I eat nothing but tofu and sprouts every day! For example, I recently discovered a wonderful veggie patty made by Don Lee Farms (probably not available where you live) which has no soy in it whatsoever, is NOT a burger wannabe, and is delicious and healthy in its own right. It's fabulous. Even my husband, who's not a veghead but has cut down drastically on his animal consumption thanks to my influence, loves the stuff. The moral is that soy is not the center of the universe for vegans. There's so much more out there to eat. You should explore more, taprial!

I'm no economist, but I believe that one of the reasons for the often higher cost of vegan prepared foods is that there are relatively few vegans buying them and the law of supply and demand dictates that the cost must go up. Also, the meat, dairy and egg lobbies in the U.S. keep the price of those items artificially low so that consumers will be motivated to buy more. So, more vegans = lower cost of vegan food. I will just have to pound the pavement and create more vegans to lower those prices!

Peace Corps: fascinating experience. I was in Ethiopia back in 73-75, probably before you were born, at the exact time that Haile Selassie got kicked out. Don't tell anybody, but people who join the Peace Corps are mostly doing it for themselves. At least I was. I do have my political idealist side, as most PCVs do, but I also love to travel, and I was happy to get a small stipend to live and teach in Africa. The Peace Corps taught me how little in the way of material "stuff" and technology you really need to have a good life. Very important lesson. Financial success is highly overrated.

This hardly classifies as research. Your reference to John Robbins sealed the issue for me. And by the way I am not taken in by the topic; I was taken in by the holier than thou, preaching attitude of a confused, brainwashed convert not having any courage of conviction, who became increasingly arrogant and now is almost sounding like a fascist. Yes ma’am, your opinion about population and its control reeks of fascism.

Anyway, it is good that you have not really countered any of the issues that I had brought out. Therefore I presume you agree with most of what I had to say, other than, of course the sex drive of dogs after being spayed/neutered. God! Why do women always keep thinking about sex? I was talking about evolution, but I guess you are not much of a biologist just like you are not an astronomer and an economist.

Tell you the truth, My whole point is, BE a Vegan, you have taken a decision, stick by it, I respect it, just let others be.

I think we have consumed enough of our time and also space on Xomba’s server on an issue which IMHO both of us are not convinced about. It has been nice discussing the topic anyway.

Rawnak, if you are reading this, you shouldn’t use ALL C(R)APS in your titles.

If you don't like John Robbins, who's written many books, has done a lot of research, and walks the walk, I can't help that. I happen to respect the man. You seem a bit angry and irrational, but young men often are (when they're not thinking about, uh, EVOLUTION ;)), not to mention defensive. As for letting others be, I'm not out in the streets forcing people to become vegans at gunpoint. You chose to read my article, and then to read my comments. I didn't force you! So obviously there's something in you that wants the information, and wants to research the subject, and I commend you for that. After all, it took me 50 years to convince myself that veganism was the right thing to do. I know how that goes.

So you think birth control is fascist? How weird is that? I guess you think humans should breed with impunity and eliminate all the other animals, except maybe for the ones they exploit for food, clothing, entertainment, etc. Sounds like a delightful prospect. Not.

Thanks very much for participating. Sorry for the long delay in responding.

Vega is a star you can easily see in the evening sky, late spring and all summer. It is a star brighter than the Sun, and was used in some spectral classification schemes for spectral irradiance normalizations.

http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/us/spectro8/spaude31_us.htm

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0304/0304350v2.pdf

Vega spectra are used for normalizations for calibration because Vega is a bright star with a spectrum reasonably free of spectral lines -- and it is convenient to use this bright star as a reference spectral base.

Vega has nothing to do with vegetarians.

=========== Soylent Green has been mentioned many times. (13 or 14 times -even in several of mine scattered over xomba) But you are right, correctomundo -- not here until you did! Soylent Green(S)

GO Myth! Go Myth! Go GO GO!

Enjoy Soylent Green with and in Manburgers! Combine the best of vege world with the, uh, rest uh, of the human world!

I apologize for identifying Vega as a planet rather than a star, but I'm not much of an astronomer. And yes, Vega has zilch to do with vegheads. My title was, uh, tongue in cheek.

Live long and prosper, and soylent green forever!

Cool idea! Here's one that makes me smile: (Even though it's technically illegal), I would like my corpse to be placed outdoors so that the ravens, whom I adore and to whom I feed peanut butter every morning, will eat my body, and I'll become part of them and get to fly in my next incarnation.

(Today's Translation: Knowing that the Good-Guys Win, We'll Continue to Suspend Disbelief and Be Interested in Seeing How!")Disagree? Join to Defend Your Honor!

Why do people assume that vegans are miserable? Trust me, I'm not miserable. I never could stay on a diet for more than three weeks, but I've been a vegan, happily, for almost nine years. I must be enjoying myself!

... Secure the Ball-&-Chain to the Husband

ChampaigneDreams was thinking--like I said--of the 'not eating'; but--as Brother Rex says--if you focus on all the good stuff the best Way means doing, you won't even care about the not doing!
Disagree? Join to Defend Your Honor!

Absolutely. Why accentuate the negative and focus on the down side of something? Although actually I don't really think there's a down side to veganism, but that's just me.

Didn't mean to imply that Vegans are miserable. Mythman was right in interpreting what I meant. I just meant to say that if you like the food you eat but are afraid to gain weight - instead of denying yourself said food - eat it in moderation. As was mentioned, Vegans can be overweight too.

That's how 'Veganism' means 'not eating meat.'

I don't believe God destroys—He enlivens those you wish to live Right, and doesn't see the others. Veganism--though it probably even promotes itself as 'not eating animal-stuff'--really should concentrate on promoting what Vegans DO eat ... "Riding Mother Nature's silver seed to their new home in the Sun" ...
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Absolutely. No matter what you're putting in your mouth, The Middle Way, as the Great Buddha at Kamakura (and other places) said, is the best way.

I always enjoy reading interesting articles. And yours was definitely that.

I absolutely agree that there can be problems with nutraceuticals, including negative interactions with "conventional" drugs, but a simple, daily multivitamin/mineral supplement will not cause harm. That's all I'm saying!

What surprises me about your comment with its multiple links is that you don't seem to be concerned about the heavy-duty pharmaceuticals that doctors prescribe all the time to patients, which have major side effects that can even kill, as we see often in news reports (so much for the efficacy of animal experimentation). I took my mother to an MD recently who actually said to me, without irony, that EVERYBODY over 60 years old should be on some kind of drug (and he was talking prescription drugs, not street drugs). That mindset is what I have a problem with, the idea that powerful medications, e.g., blood pressure drugs, are given to patients like they're candy by doctors who don't seem to be aware that simple nutritional and lifestyle changes could do more to lower blood pressure than some toxic pharmaceutical. And in the more so-called primitive societies that still exist, as discussed in Robbins' book, people eat wholesome, healthy plant-based foods, along with low animal product consumption, and they live to a ripe old age, still mentally and physically active until the end. That just doesn't happen much in western societies. My mother is in a nursing home now surrounded by people who have made it to old age, but they're borderline dead and being given a constant stream of powerful meds just to keep them "alive". Old age doesn't have to be that way. We just assume it's got to be that way because that's what we see around us, and doctors don't help matters much by being drug pushers.