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Should CPS Be Allowed to Take Your Kids Away, For Your Beliefs?

posted July 12, 2008 - 11:34am
Should CPS Be Allowed to Take Your Kids Away, For Your Beliefs?

I wrote a blurb last night about the Canadian woman whose children were removed from her home after she drew a swastika on her daughter's arm, and sent her to school twice like that.

Now, my initial knee-jerk response is to be glad that these children were removed from a home in which their primary caregiver is a neo-nazi (apparently, she describes herself as a "white nationalist", and her home is covered with neo-nazi flags and symbols). I do personally believe that this woman's beliefs and politics will harm her children, and push them to become ignorant, racist buggers them selves.

However, the more I think about it, the more I think that this is really a bad thing. Sure, I don't agree with her beliefs and I think that they are wrong and dangerous. But, there's no evidence which suggests she is violent in her wrong and dangerous beliefs. There's no evidence which suggests that she physically harms, neglects, or endangers the children.

So, it got me thinking. Should CPS, the police, the school system, whoever be allowed to do this? Should they be allowed to say, "we don't like you, nor do we like the way that you are raising your children to believe in the same things that we don't like, so we're taking them away!"

What if you ran into a CPS worker that didn't like the fact that you were Muslim, and found those beliefs so wrong so as to endanger the children who would grow up around them? Would it be okay to remove children from the home of a Muslim, because someone didn't like Islam? What if the parents were gay? Do we remove their children because we don't agree with their lifestyle? What about Christian? Do we remove the children because we feel the beliefs held by Christian parents will endanger the child's ability to live and think and believe in the way we think is best for them?

At what point do we decide that even though we don't agree with the beliefs, politics, religion, lifestyle etc. of the parents, it is still not okay to take away or limit their parental rights because of it? When it affects us and our children and our beliefs directly? Where do we draw the line?



Comments

I'm not as confident as you that this will stop there.

"But gay people and Muslims aren't creating concentration camps to murder millions of people. Sure, people don't like those beliefs, but Nazism and what the swastika represent are totally different." Neo-nazi's aren't either, because they can't (whether or not they want to, depends on the person, either way ~ they can't anymore, so they aren't doing it). To you, these are "totally different", but they aren't as different as you may think in the minds of others. And, looking at it honestly, they are probably only "totally different" to me, because I hate the ideals of the neo-nazis, but don't mind the beliefs, ideals, etc. of the other groups I've mentioned. Catholics used to, way back when, do some really horrible things to anyone they felt was a heretic or an apostate. They even murdered millions of people. Now, it's been longer then it has for the original monstrous Nazi's, so people no longer fear Catholicism, or Catholics, knowing that they no longer have the ability to go about torturing people who speak out against the pope, or have a different interpretation of the same Holy Book, whether or not there are those who would want to. And, believe me, there are those who would want to. I spoke to a Catholic man online the other day who was saying how "the children of parents who refuse to participate in infant baptism should be taken away from them, so that those children won't be denied the beatific vision should they die young." He quite literally wanted to bring back the inquisition, feeling that it would lead to the saving of souls, even if it resulted in pain and the loss of physical life. Maybe that has something to do with why this story gets to me in this way. Because I have met people who would say that MY children should be removed from MY home, because I'm not baptizing them, or impressing upon them the urgency of the Bible, or whatever. Losing Weight and Feeling Great! A Day in the Life of a Pagan Parent The Funtabulous Stuff of the 80's

Nazis

"But, to a Christian or a Muslim - a gay parent would be just as "wrong and dangerous" in their lifestyle. " But gay people and Muslims aren't creating concentration camps to murder millions of people. Sure, people don't like those beliefs, but Nazism and what the swastika represent are totally different. The swastika is such a symbol of evil that in Europe, where people suffered under the Nazis, it is actually against the law to display it in any way. To have a house full of it is just bizarre. And that mother must be either stupid or totally clueless. How idiotic to send a child to school with a swastika on her arm, and then to put it on again after the teacher wipes it off! Is that mother so stupid that she doesn't realize what a symbol of hatred and death it is? Maybe she should have had her kids taken away for being so out of touch with the real world! But seriously, I don't know if it was right to take the kids away. But I still maintain that it's totally apples and oranges to compare Nazism and white supremacy to homosexuality, Islam, Hindusim, or any other belief system, unless that other belief system is responsible for torturing and killing millions of people simply because of their religion, national origin, ethnicity, etc. As for saying, as some have, well, just let the kids alone and wait till a Jewish kid (or whatever) bops them on the nose, what if the child is smarter than her mother, and knows that Nazism is not something you go around expressing, but she decides to act on her neo-Nazi beliefs in private, like destroying a Jewish person's property at night, or painting swastikas on synogogues? This happens all the time. The people who do it knows it's illegal and they don't want to get caught, so that's why they do it in a way that they won't get found out. And I don't know that it's a good idea these kids to be left with the parent to grow up and have her screwed-up ideas become entrenched in their young minds. Sure, maybe they'll grow up to rebel against Nazism... but I think there's a greater chance that these young children will take on the beliefs that their parents drum into their heads.

I may have even been that kid!

I never took kindly to that type of thing, so I may have bipassed the Jewish child, and taken care of the issue myself in school. In any event, I agree with you, and I think that would have been a better way to go. Losing Weight and Feeling Great! A Day in the Life of a Pagan Parent The Funtabulous Stuff of the 80's

I agree with that.

There are many times that I will see children with their parents and think to myself, "those people should not be allowed to be parents." But, I recognize that regulating what a parent is and is not allowed to believe, and consequently demonstrate to their children, is very dangerous territory. And, hey, for all we know, growing up in that situation, with a neo-nazi mother could very well result in making the children activists against neo-nazi beliefs and practices! Take for example, my paternal grandmother. She grew up in a different time, one that was not friendly to black people. As a result, she had very racist ideals. She didn't see them that way, which ticked me off to no end, but it was evident in word and action. Her son, my father, ended up not being like her. When they were watching the Black Miss America Pageant (my dad enjoys pageants), my grandmother said, "I don't know how anyone can survive being black". My father looked at her, shocked, and replied, "You know what mom? If I were God, I would make you black for all eternity when you died!" Luckily, I wasn't present at the time, my words would not have been so well-mannered. But, what that shows me is that a child is not necessarily or automatically guaranteed to become like their parents. I was raised Christian, but I am not Christian. Losing Weight and Feeling Great! A Day in the Life of a Pagan Parent The Funtabulous Stuff of the 80's

Perhaps

Perhaps the analogy isn't the same, to you, or even to me. But, to a Christian or a Muslim - a gay parent would be just as "wrong and dangerous" in their lifestyle. I've seen and heard Christians and Muslims talk about how gay people shouldn't be allowed to have children because those children would be "harmed" by their parents' ways. Those same Christians and Muslims (obviously, this doesn't pertain to ALL, just many of those I've met) would say that Pagans or Heathens shouldn't be allowed to have custody of their children, because their children's very souls are in dire jeopardy, which (to them) is worse then even physical risk. I agree that the child should not have been allowed to sport a swastika on her arm, especially during school hours. I agree that the psychological ramifications should be a priority, when it comes to the other children. So, suspend her, expel her, and let her mother know that she will not be allowed to attend school with other children, if she insists on sporting neo-nazi symbols or engaging in neo-nazi/white nationalistic speech/action. Let her mother know that this is unacceptable, let the child know that this is unacceptable. But, when we revoke the parent's rights, where does it end ~ is what I'm saying? At what point do we say that we've gone too far, and who's ideals do we say are okay to stand by when passing these judgments? Is it okay to rip children away from Atheist parents, because their children might "grow up with communist ideals" or "be automatically hell-bound because of their parent's refusal to acknowledge the Bible as 'God's truth'"? Losing Weight and Feeling Great! A Day in the Life of a Pagan Parent The Funtabulous Stuff of the 80's

Life has a way of righting wrongs

here, here. very true

Simple remedy

This is where "schoolyard justice" comes into play. When that kid gets his clock cleaned by some Jewish kid at recess, then he will know that his swastika is not appropriate. There's no need for any child services to take him away...eventually he'll realize his mother is stupid. If not, then he'll just become another piece of trash that's not worth discussing and can whither away into his own irrelevance. *If you're interested in reading my articles, Click Here.

YES and NO

The United States Supreme Court has ruled that children cannot be taken away simply because of what their parents believe. It is when those beliefs do harm to the child or to others that they can then be taken away. As was recently demonstrated in the child custody case, in Texas, of the Mormon’s who believe in polygamy. Over 400 children were taken by Child Protective Services. The Texas courts ruled that they had to give the children back because CPS could not prove that all the children were in danger. My own belief is that children should be protected by society. However, I also feel that we cannot impose our own beliefs upon others.

Beliefs

It's not just a matter of the parent's beliefs... how are other children in school (especially the Jewish ones) to feel if a classmate shows up wearing a swastika? And I think comparing someone who's Muslim or gay to someone who supports Nazi beliefs is like comparing apples and oranges. Nazism and white nationalism seem to be based on discriminating against people of other beliefs (religious, etc.), sometimes in a violent way. I don't see hatred of and discrimination against people of differing ethnic groups, nationalities, religions, etc. as an innocuous "lifestyle" choice. "Should CPS, the police, the school system, whoever be allowed to do this?" I think you answered your own question in the previous paragraph: "I do personally believe that this woman's beliefs and politics will harm her children, and push them to become ignorant, racist buggers them selves."

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