Stigma and Intolerance in "The Dark Knight"

However, it is just a movie.

I don't think anyone who is afraid of bats is going to dress up as the Batman and save us.

Any by saving us, I mean create more problems and villains for us.

But that's another topic.

Saying it's "just a movie" shows a really extraordinary ignorance of the fact that throughout all of human history, the stories we tell - whether they come in the form of movies, TV, books, plays, opera, or oral tradition - are not only a huge reflection of a culture and its values and opinions, but can have an enormous effect on shaping society and human interaction - even politics.

I disagree. I don't watch movies such as Star Wars or the recent Tropic Thunder to shape my views of humanity or philosophy.

I'm educated enough to know that a work of fiction is a work of fiction. Why there may be some kind of metaphorical reference in a movie such as Harold and Kumar I am smart enough to separate entertainment value from the non-fiction.

I would agree that this problem exists in our media, but to draw the comparison with entertainment is a pretty big leap.

I play Grand Theft Auto. I love being the crook running from the policeman. I don't think all cops are bad, but my judgment on that is not based from the game. Nor due out steal cars.

Our brains separate fantasy from fiction.

I love Batman. I think he is awesome and in NO WAY do I think being a vigilante is a way to solve crime.

Much less do I per stock in one line in a script about a mental illness.

Obviously, the writer/directors are not PHDs.

Ah, ok. So you're a moron. Enjoy your life.

Read

www.xomba.com/xomba_blog_frankie_says_relax

Is it just impossible to get people not to resort to personal attacks?

Really?

Can people no longer disagree with something before one is called a name?

I complimented you on your post. I thought it was well written and well explained. However, I am not allowed to disagree.

When did it become appropriate to write something and not expect any kind of criticism.

Then you insult me, the owner of this website?

Seriously? After I just wrote 20 minutes on personal attacks? www.xomba.com/xomba_blog_frankie_says_relax

There are people on Xomba who have a wonderful talent for writing. But let me make this very clear (since this is the business we are in). If you cannot take opinions and critiques without it becoming personal then you better find a new profession or hobby.

If anyone thinks for one second that what they say is so high and mighty that no one has the right to dissagree then you really should quit writing. Or just keep a journal and let no one read it.

Unbelievable. First, I was disappointed, but now I am completely ashamed.

Saying it's "just a movie" shows a really extraordinary ignorance of the fact that throughout all of human history, the stories we tell - whether they come in the form of movies, TV, books, plays, opera, or oral tradition - are not only a huge reflection of a culture and its values and opinions, but can have an enormous effect on shaping society and human interaction - even politics.

That may be true, but unfortunately that's a reflection of the ignorant, gullible masses. To anyone who actually uses their mind to think, rather than just absorb the culture around us without a critical eye, the idea that movies influence us is laughable.

Blame ignorance, not the media.

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Don't you know who you're messing with? You don't say that to Big Daddy Xomba!

I haven't seen this movie so I can't say but it seems you are very passionate about this topic and that I can understand.

Laurenvork, I find it quite funny that you write an article with the words "stigma" and "intolerance" in the title yet you show no tolerance at all when someone simply disagrees with you in a polite way. What happened to practice what you preach? you're a part of the media when you publish here so you should then have the same responsibility as Batman shouldn't you? Personally I think you undestimate people's ability to think for themselves. We're not schizophrenics you know... we (the public) can for the most part differentiate between reality and fiction.

First of all, just because I belive in promoting the rights of people with disabilities, that doesn't mean I'm a nicey-nice person who believes in hand-holding for people who say dumb things. Schizophrenia is a mental illness, but arrogance is a choice.

Secondly, while I do think that people are capable of critical thinking, I'm astounded by the arrogance of people
who think that they are somehow "above" being affected by their social and media in any way in spite of the fact that everyone else is. It's also ridiculously ironic, since the value our culture places on being an independent thinking lone-wolf is, in itself, a social pressure that people succumb to.

And I think I demonstrated pretty clearly in my article that I have plenty of experience to tell me exactly how most people perceive schizophrenics. I myself was fairly ignorant and afraid of them before I got interested in working in mental health.

But you know, it is pretty lazy and immature of me to resort to ad-hominem name-calling, and I apologize - in the future, I'll just ignore people who demonstrate that they can't engage in the argument and just repeat bullheaded, arrogant statements.

Ok. So the ad-hominem insulting was pretty rash and ill-considered on my part. Sorry, everyone. In my defense, I'm extremely feverish today from an infection of viral pneumonia (102.1) and not thinking as clearly as I normally do.

This is also a topic that I get very emotional about, so when people basically tell me I shouldn't be concerned about what I see as the cause and reflection of some very real social stigma that I've seen cause enormous damage to the lives of people I care about, I get ticked off beyond the point of maturity pretty quickly.

I will, however, argue that insulting someone for their viewpoint is extremely different from hating and discriminating against someone for their disability - your opinions are a choice, whereas your mental illness is not.

I also find it frustrating whenever someone claims that either a) cultural expressions are meaningless (in spite of all evidence to the contrary) or b) they themselves are somehow "above" being affected by the social environment that affects all those "unwashed masses." This is not only incredibly arrogant, it's hilariously ironic due to the fact that this value our culture places on being an independent thinking lone-wolf is, in itself, a social pressure that many of us succumb to.

You talk about intolerance and arrogance and I think you are exactly that. Intolerant of other people's views and opinions expressed in a polite way and absolutely arrogant in what you think people are. Where is your tolerance? How arrogant can you be?

We are all the result of our social environment. And while some of us are more in the habit of critically thinking than others, we all apply different levels of this thinking to different areas of what we see depending on whether or not we think it's warranted to do so. Generally, we accept most of what we see if we haven't been given a reason to question it, because we can't question everything.

Let me demonstrate this with an example: for some reason, I've seen a rather high number of movies containing scenes with actors portraying instrumental music conductors conducting with the baton in their left hand. As a classical musician, I know that no decent instrumental conductor will really do this as it screws up the beat pattern and will confuse the heck out of your musicians. But is the average person going to bother to take the time to question this? Of course not. And as Thomas Paine observed, if you don't actively think of something you observe as "wrong," or "false," you're going to start passively thinking of it as "true." This is just how we make sense of our reality, and it starts when we're babies.

Now, I may snicker with my musician friends while we watch a movie with an actor conducting wrong, but I'm not going to bother to write articles about the portrayal of conductors in the media because it doesn't matter in the slightest. It doesn't hurt anyone. But it's still very inaccurate.

Did you realize that conductors have to keep the baton in their right hand? If not, does that make you "gullible" and "ignorant"?

Of course not. Likewise, I don't think that people have to be gullible or ignorant to have serious misconceptions about schizophrenia - I'm sure that such misconceptions were the reason this line was written in this movie, and I would never call the talented artists behind this film (seriously, you have no idea how much I loved this movie) gullible or ignorant in general. But we're all ignorant about something, and we all walk around with serious misconceptions. I wish people didn't respond so poorly to having someone try to change them.

laurenvork wrote:
"I will, however, argue that insulting someone for their viewpoint is extremely different from hating and discriminating against someone for their disability"

You (the individual) insulted another individual for a viewpoint. But who's hating and discriminating against someone for their disability? But you're right this is worse and I'd like to find that particular person who hates people with disabilities and tell him/her a thing or two, but I don't think that person is to be found here on Xomba. 2 wrongs doesn't make a right you know. The plague may be worse than cholera but I don't want any of them.

Hating,discriminating and personal insult does however all fall into the broader category of intolerance.

Laurenvork wrote:
"I also find it frustrating whenever someone claims that either a) cultural expressions are meaningless (in spite of all evidence to the contrary) or b) they themselves are somehow "above" being affected by the social environment that affects all those "unwashed masses."

I can understand that, but no one here has made neither claim A or B literally and to the fullest consequence, this is a strawman you put up there. Different people are affected by different things and with different levels of impact. I don't believe we are merely products of our environments it's to simple an assumption for me to accept. does that make me arrogant?
and yes, I do believe some people are largely unaffected while other people are more gullible but censorship and restrictions on cultural expression and media is not a good solution to this. I'm not saying you're suggesting censorship but what do you suggest should be done to protect the more gullible among us from themselves?

I find it amazing that with all of your self-proclaimed experience with people who suffer from schizophrenia that you could not see the parallel between an identified "henchman" who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia and the actions of the Joker - and why someone who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia, and is in fact a henchman who is "roughing up" Harvey Dent, would be "Joker-worthy."

Either you do not know the clinical definition of paranoid schizophrenia and its signs/symptoms, or you are simply a tad bit too easily offended by any mention of such persons in any negative way - even in a Hollywood production (that clearly shows said person performing criminal acts).

The line "with a violent history" would not be necessary if the person who was being referred to actually assaulted Dent. It would already be understood that the man is violent. And the fact that he suffers from paranoid schizophrenia pretty much makes him perfectly suited for the Joker's gang, considering the Joker's personality: delusions of persecution or personal grandeur, strange statements and behavior, withdrawal from friends/society, anger, indifference to other's opinions/concerns, a conviction that he is better than others - all signs or symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia.

Personally, I couldn't think of a better mental disorder to attribute to the henchmen of the Joker and I'm glad the producers of this movie were able to accurately associate this type of schizophrenia with the Joker character. I applaud them and wish them continued success.

I hope you don't plan on seeing any additional installments of Batman considering that practically all of his adversaries suffer from some sort of serious mental disorder.

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Lauren has privately apologized to me about her comment. All is forgiven.

She seems to be a talented writer. I look forward to "arguing" with her in the future.

I would ask that you guys accept her here at Xomba.

Many Muslims get iritated (sp? lol) at reporters calling terrorist groups "Muslims" and less-iritated when reporters call `em "Radical-Muslims"

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How very funny that after a page full of comments from people telling me that it's absurd to believe that anyone would ever think that the portrayal of schizophrenics in The Dark Knight was an accurate one, I get...someone arguing that the portrayal of schizophrenics in The Dark Knight was an accurate one. Want to read the rest of the comments and see which of the previous posters think you're ignorant, gullible, unthinking, etc.?

But like I said, I think that misconceptions about schizophrenia can occur in perfectly intelligent people - I certainly had some of my own until a couple of dear friends confided in me that they had it. I never even knew before that because, guess what, they can live perfectly ordinary lives with the right support.

"...delusions of persecution or personal grandeur, strange statements and behavior, withdrawal from friends/society, anger, indifference to other's opinions/concerns, a conviction that he is better than others - all signs or symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia..."

Technically, this is not an inaccurate list of symptoms, but firstly, it is incomplete. Secondly, having schizophrenia by no means guarantees that you will experience all symptoms (both of my friends exhibit very few of the ones you've listed).

Thirdly, and most importantly, when someone has a mental illness, their symptoms are NOT WHO THEY ARE, but something that happens to them. If they're having success with managing their illness, symptoms will not happen very often at all - both of my friends and many of my former clients would go months or even years without having any symptoms.

And when symptoms do happen, they're not always that big a deal. I was once sitting with my sister and one of my friends, just hanging out, and she said to us, "Guys, I'm hearing voices right now, just so you know. I'm trying really hard to focus on our conversation, but it's getting really distracting." No biggie, and she even shared some of what the voices were saying, because some of it was actually pretty funny.

"I hope you don't plan on seeing any additional installments of Batman considering that practically all of his adversaries suffer from some sort of serious mental disorder."

Actually, I'm really hoping to see The Ventriloquist in a future installment of this series, disassociative identity disorder and all.

I have no problem with villians being portrayed as having a mental illness. Mentall illness can add some really fascinating dimensions to a villian...just as it can add some really fascinating dimensions to a hero. What I have a problem with is how much more you see of the former than the latter and the implication that a mental illness IN ITSELF is what makes the villian a villian.

I was going to go on some begrudged rant saying something-like 'no one really cares what lauren thinks of you, just that she apologized for-real (which she did, below);' but then I thought about it, and I thought, 'How can you provide a good example if you do not tell us what you do?'

nick, you HAVE provided a good example. May you continue to do so, properously!

All That, and Uncle MythMan STILL Thinks You're Awesome!---Big Fan of 2008 Olympics, VegHead, Love, ~Nam Myoho Renge Kyo~ http://is.gd/22wY, Fussin` http://is.gd/1fSs, Ms. Montagne http://is.gd/1fRg, Ms. Li http://is.gd/1fSe -http://is.gd/1fSj Xombie Plan

I can see where that's related - it's the same sort of implication that being Muslim is automatically a cause of being violent. It always pisses me off when reporters say that, too - a religous terrorist is a religious terrorist, and which religion they happen to use as justification should be a side note.

Publius's comment seemed more like a 'don't judge so much' than a 'your judgement is WRONG' lol.

One of the underlying ideas of most BATMANs is that 'your outer shell becomes easily compromised when the world rubs it raw.'

One 'raw-rubbing' is "paranoid schizophrenia"---good-or-evil, your mind becomes occupied with 'handling that sickness' ... to occupied to discern personal-good from greater-good.

THAT's why it was easy for Joker to hypnotize those schizoids---because schizophrenia is one of MANY MIND-PROBLEMS that evil attacks!

All That, and Uncle MythMan STILL Thinks You're Awesome!---Big Fan of 2008 Olympics, VegHead, Love, ~Nam Myoho Renge Kyo~ http://is.gd/22wY, Fussin` http://is.gd/1fSs, Ms. Montagne http://is.gd/1fRg, Ms. Li http://is.gd/1fSe -http://is.gd/1fSj Xombie Plan

"I can understand that, but no one here has made neither claim A or B literally and to the fullest consequence, this is a strawman you put up there.

Um, no. An argument doesn't have to be made "literally and to the fullest consequence" (subjective statement anyway) in order for my arguing against it to not be a strawman. A strawman would be an argument that does not exist in this conversation at all. Next question.

"I'm not saying you're suggesting censorship but what do you suggest should be done to protect the more gullible among us from themselves?""

Mainly, I advocate education about the topic directed towards people who have misconceptions. You know, like writing articles about it and posting them online...like I'm already doing? Ring any bells?

But I would be very pleased if a little bit of education caused the filmmakers to see fit to remove this line from the DVD release of the movie. And no, that's not censorship, seeing as I hardly have any power of institutional authority over them.

I don't think anyone is going to argue that we need more education at home and in the classroom.

In 'Intro. to Advertising,' I learned that--on-average--it takes about 7 exposures to an ad before a person will include its product in their purchase-plans ... before they will associate the name with the product-type ... or somethin` ... (it was college; I was prob`ly high ... on life! high on life, I said!)

Carrying that example here: in one of the 'character listings' of Xombie, I was quoted as ALWAYS saying, 'Defend Your Honor!' because I DID always say that. (in my auto-signature, I had written 'Disagree? Join! to Defend Your Honor!' and I think it was a recurring theme in my comments/posts).

I had also put a picture of Buddy Jesus in my avatar. A few weeks later, people were having dreams of Jesus giving them MythMan-style advice on stuff.

And soon, you're going to KNOW what an awesome person you are ... for some reason ...

All That, and Uncle MythMan STILL Thinks You're Awesome!---Big Fan of 2008 Olympics, VegHead, Love, ~Nam Myoho Renge Kyo~ http://is.gd/22wY, Fussin` http://is.gd/1fSs, Ms. Montagne http://is.gd/1fRg, Ms. Li http://is.gd/1fSe -http://is.gd/1fSj Xombie Plan

The idea that schizophrenics are more susceptible to being manipulated into evil isn't really much better than the idea that they're inherently evil. And it's equally untrue.

"One of the underlying ideas of most BATMANs is that 'your outer shell becomes easily compromised when the world rubs it raw.'"

Yes, but the vital second half of that theme is that you have a choice of what to make of yourself when the world does that to you. Look at what Harvey Dent made of his pain vs. what Bruce Wayne made of his.

Do people with MI face a great deal of pain and adversity? Oh, hells yes. But all of them have the same choice and power of what to do with their experiences and what to make out of their lives. For centuries, we've tried to say otherwise, to lock them in asylums, treat them like animals, to fear and despise them with the justification that they no longer posess this most vital quality of being human: choice. And that's wrong.

"need more education ... in the classroom"

Before someone goes, 'Ain't them the same thing?' I will point out that no, they're not.

Schooling shows you the button-sequences the owners want you to push; education shows you which owners you want to push button-sequences for!

All That, and Uncle MythMan STILL Thinks You're Awesome!---Big Fan of 2008 Olympics, VegHead, Love, ~Nam Myoho Renge Kyo~ http://is.gd/22wY, Fussin` http://is.gd/1fSs, Ms. Montagne http://is.gd/1fRg, Ms. Li http://is.gd/1fSe -http://is.gd/1fSj Xombie Plan

Um, yes.. putting up a strawman is basically to "describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent"(wikipedia). In my opinion that's exactly what you did.

I agree that people need more education but the problem is everyone can't be educated about everything all the time. But in this particular case I agree that it can be stigmatizing if a large number of people don't have the required knowledge about schizophrenics and people takes it for truth that schizophrenics are automatically violent and scary. that image can unconsciously establish itself in peoples mind and potentially affect the way they react when confronted with schizophrenics. But the concept you're describing is mostly applicable when it comes to things that aren't common knowledge or common morals, like your example with the music conductors. If Batman's nemesis was paraplegic for instance not many people would walk around believing that paraplegics are generally violent. Maybe you should write a letter to the filmmakers about your concerns maybe they can add some disclaimer in the film stating that the portrayal of the characthers and specifically schizophrenic characthers are merely a work of fiction.

for that to happen when the family and home is being destroyed and the liberal indoctrination camps we call schools are alienating our children from whatever good morals and ethics still exist? I hope is not too late, for the sake of our nation and our society.

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I agree, one doesn't have to be ignorant or gullible to have misconceptions about schizophrenia. For years, I recall how T.V. perpetuated the myth that schizophrenia was split personality disorder. However, I learned a long time ago that just wasn't so.

Cinema is flawed, and will never portray the real world with 100% accuracy. Should we really expect it to, or get all that bent out of shape when they don't?

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"Cinema is flawed, and will never portray the real world with 100% accuracy. Should we really expect it to, or get all that bent out of shape when they don't?"

Inaccuracies are one thing. Inaccuracies that reinforce a popular misconception which has an extremely detrimental effect on the lives of people who don't deserve it is something entirely different.

And who's bent out of shape? You don't exactly see me calling for mass boycotts or legal action against this movie or any such nonsense. I wrote a freakin' article about my experiences, why is that considered "overreacting" by so many people?

I guessing it's because we don't yet have any cultural awareness about the issue of discrimination against people with MI. We know that it's Not Okay to pick on people of color, women, gays, Jews, the physically handicapped, etc., but "crazy people" are still fair game. People always resist the start of a new justice movement.

British comedian Jimmy Carr, known for his offensive brand of humor, (or should I say humour since he's British), said the following in an interview published in the UK edition of GQ magazine last year. (This was in response to "Even given the state of world affairs, you'd still happily tell Muslim jokes?")

"...I credit my audiences with the intelligence to know what a joke is. I don't feel the need to apologise. If people don't like it, tough. What's weird is the way you can cover all the touchstones of comedy, and tell jokes about diseases and famines, war and pestilence. But at the end, someone will come up to you and have a go about one particular joke, and it's always the one that directly affected them and their family. And you think, OK, fine, so you'll laugh at everyone else's misfortunes, but not your own."