"Why is there suffering? That proves there is no loving’ God." or does it?
"Why is there suffering? That proves there is no loving’ God." or does it?
Study the soil for a moment. It naturally produces weeds. No one plants them; no one waters them. They even stubbornly push through cracks of a dry sidewalk. Millions of useless weeds sprout like there’s no tomorrow, strangling our crops and ruining our lawns. Pull them out by the roots, and there will be more tomorrow. They are nothing but a curse!
Consider how much of the earth is uninhabitable. There are millions of square miles of barren deserts in Africa and other parts of the world. Most of Australia is nothing but miles and miles of useless desolate land. Not only that, but the earth is constantly shaken with massive earthquakes. Its shores are lashed with hurricanes; tornadoes rip through creation with incredible fury; devastating floods soak the land; and terrible droughts parch the soil. Sharks, tigers, lions, snakes, spiders, and disease-carrying mosquitoes attack humanity and suck its life’s blood.
The earth’s inhabitants are afflicted with disease, pain, suffering, and death. Think of how many people are plagued with cancer, Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis, heart disease, emphysema, Parkinson’s, and a number of other debilitating illnesses. Consider all the children with leukemia, or people born with crippling diseases or without the mental capability to even feed themselves. All these things should convince thinking minds that something is radically wrong. Did God blow it when He created humanity? What sort of tyrant must our Creator be if this was His master plan?
Sadly, many use the issue of suffering as an excuse to reject any thought of God, when its existence is the very reason we should accept Him. Suffering stands as terrible testimony to the truth of the explanation given by the Word of God. But how can we know that the Bible is true? Simply by studying the prophecies of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and 2 Timothy 3. A few minutes of openhearted inspection will convince any honest skeptic that this is no ordinary book. It is the supernatural testament of our Creator about why there is suffering...and what we can do about it.
The Bible tells us that God cursed the earth because of Adam’s transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation. In the beginning, God created man perfect, and he lived in a perfect world without suffering. It was heaven on earth. When sin came into the world, death and misery came with it. Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new heaven and a new earth "wherein dwells righteous-ness." In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease, or death. We are told that no eye has ever seen, nor has any ear heard, neither has any man’s mind ever imagined the wonderful things that God has in store for those who love Him (1 Corinthians 2:9).
Think for a moment what it would be like if food grew with the fervor of weeds. Consider how wonderful it would be if the deserts became incredibly fertile, if creation stopped devouring humanity. Imagine if the weather worked for us instead of against us, if disease completely disappeared, if pain was a thing of the past, if death was no more.
The dilemma is that we are like a child whose insatiable appetite for chocolate has caused his face to break out with ugly sores. He looks in the mirror and sees a sight that makes him depressed. But instead of giving up his beloved chocolate, he consoles himself by stuffing more into his mouth. Yet, the source of his pleasure is actually the cause of his suffering. The whole face of the earth is nothing but ugly sores of suffering. Everywhere we look we see unspeakable pain. But instead of believing God’s explanation and asking Him to forgive us and change our appetite, we run deeper into sin’s sweet embrace. There we find solace in its temporal pleasures, thus intensifying our pain, both in this life and in the life to come.
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I'm not sure that suffering
I'm not sure that suffering "proves" there is no loving god, but your analysis does contain many logical inconsistencies. Now, before I'm chided about logic and its futility in religious debate, I'd like to just say that I acknowledge the fact that faith will never be trumped by logic - faith does not require critical thought. So, I will simply point out what's wrong with some of these beliefs according to their premise.
"...God cursed the earth because of Adam’s transgression...we live in a fallen creation...In the beginning, God created man perfect, and he lived in a perfect world without suffering...When sin came into the world, death and misery came with it."
Before we get into "original sin," let's first acknowledge what even you most likely cannot deny. Your god is the creator of all things, right? Nothing existed before God. So when you say, "sin came into the world," did God not create it? The serpent in the garden (the "devil") and the temptation of Adam - are these not a direct result of God's creation? If they are not, then we do not have a singular supreme entity, we have dual entities - one good and one evil, both able to create in their own image. You cannot have a singular entity, the creator of all things, if something other than himself existed without him creating it. That is called a contradiction and it cannot stand as such.
Now, as far as Adam's transgression goes...why would it be just to condemn all of humanity to suffer because of one man's "sin"? Is God not a just god? Does he not see the folly of his own punishment? On a side note: Did God not know that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit before he created man or the fruit? If he did not, then he is not omniscient. If he did, then why did he create man and fruit as it was and allow man to "fall" when he could have easily prevented it?
Let me just quote something on religion and "original sin" and its irrational/illogical nature. This is written much better than I can explain it:
"Damnation is the start of your morality, destruction is its purpose, means and end. Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not.
"It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some incomprehensible design or any passer-by whose rotting sores are held as some inexplicable claim upon him - it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintelligible debts, his only concept of a value is a zero: the good is that which is non-man.
"The name of this absurdity is Original Sin.
"A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man's sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality. To hold man's nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code.
"Do not hide behind the cowardly evasion that man is born with free will, but with a 'tendency' to evil. A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice. It forces man to struggle through the effort of playing, to bear responsibility and pay for the game, but the decision is weighted in favor of a tendency that he has no power to escape. If the tendency is of his choice, he cannot possess it at birth; if it is not of his choice, his will is not free.
"What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge - he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil - he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor - he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire - he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy - all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man's fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was - that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love - he was not man.
"Man's fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he's man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives." - John Galt
So who are the sufferers? The people who are not reasonable, moral, productive, or joyful? You suffer by your own virtue and the virtues of those you keep as your neighbors. By the accounts you named - the deserted, the barren, the destructive, the deadly - our world is not perfect. Why would a perfect being create imperfection? If reason, morality, productiveness, and joy are considered imperfect, then what qualities does your god possess? Perhaps suffering is God's purpose for man.
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Excellent article, freeindeed.
One of the best I have ever read on the subject. Your title is a little misleading, however. I came into your article ready to present my own argument for the goodness of God, and found you had already done it much better than I ever could. Thanks.
Just one question...
Publius,
Would you consider yourself to be a good person?
Yes, I would consider
Yes, I would consider it.
(Some here may disagree, but they may not understand the question.)
Why do you ask?
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Do you think that you have
Do you think that you have kept the Ten Commandment?
(for arguments sake lets just look at the Ten Commandments as a standard for human character)
Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever stolen anything? (taken anything that did not belong to you regardless of it's value)
I don't take kindly to
I don't take kindly to "commandments," so I can honestly admit that I have not lived strictly by them. I have lied, I have stolen, I have not kept holy the Sabbath. We will, solely for the sake of argument (for now anyway), use the Ten Commandments as "a standard for human character."
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Please do not take the
Please do not take the following in any way negatively.
Then by your own admission you have:
lied which makes you a liar
you have stolen which makes you a thief
(we can leave the sabbath day out of this for the sake of respecting your stand).
And yet you say you are a good person.
If God (my God) judges you by the Ten Commandments on the day of judgment, will you be innocent or guilty?
Yes, despite my past lies
Yes, despite my past lies and thievery, I am a good person. I do not live my life in fear of eternal judgment. I do not accept the premise that once a liar, always a liar. I do not accept the premise that once a thief, always a thief. Even your God forgives past transgressions. On "judgment day" - the day of my death - I will not care what judgment is passed, for I will be dead.
We do not have to live according to "commandments" in order to be good people. We do not have to live for the "afterlife" in order to lead a good one now. We do not need "holy scriptures" to determine what is good for man. We do not need to separate mind from body in order to reach a higher state of being.
You live according to your faith. I do not. Your faith has no relevance to me...your judgment and/or punishments mean nothing to me. I don't live for others nor do I live according to their morality - I live for me. My morality is based on what is good for me and for my individual happiness. From that alone I am capable of goodness - not your idea of goodness, but mine.
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I am in no way trying to
I am in no way trying to insult your way of thinking. You asked me a few questions earlier and I an trying to answer them.
For the sake of a lengthy argument let me just say that the mind can NEVER fully understand the concept of God. No matter what your education or critical thinking power you will never understand God. The mind is a place of logic and you cannot explain God with logic. However the conscience (the place of knowing right and wrong) is the place where God can be defined and you don't need education to access it. The mind simply attempts to justify or argue with the conviction of the conscience.
No one can ever earn eternal life by being good. No penance or atonement will ever be good enough to reunite us with the God that created us.That is a misconception that the world has been led to believe.Salvation is not something that we can do on our own.
It is only by accepting the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross that we can ever enter eternal life.
The world will never come to agreement on this subject therefore we must always respect other points of view. Thank you for taking the time to share your point of view with me.
Please visit http://www.isthisgodreal.blogspot.com for more information and evidence on this subject.
Excuse Me For Intruding...
But, I HATE this kind of argument (not the article, this comment). Everyone, and I do mean everyone, has lied, or stolen (depending on definition) at one point or another. Not one single person is innocent, completely, of having broken any of the ten commandments.
But that doesn't mean that there aren't good people on this earth, even if you do use the ten commandments as a measuring stick for human character.
By your argument, every single person on the planet (including toddlers) are bad people. That's ridiculous.
Now, I understand that in many denominations of Christianity, they teach you that there is no one on this earth who is "good" and that we are all bad bad sinners worthy of hell-fire and should consider ourselves lucky that God even gives a crap about us at all.
Well, if that is your definition/description of God, then I'd say your version of God is unloving indeed, and not worth anyone's time. Hopefully, I'm misreading, and you don't belong to that realm of thought. I'm a parent, and though my children irritate me, misbehave, or are even down right rude at times, I love them unconditionally and I consider them good people who occasionally do naughty things. I don't consider them bad people who are lucky I have not yet struck them down with my mighty smiting stick. That kind of thinking would not only make me a bad parent, but a pretty crappy person as well.
Again, sorry for the intrusion. I couldn't shut up ~ Aunt Flow wouldn't let me. Continue on...
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I am glad that you stopped
I am glad that you stopped in to leave a comment. However I think that you misunderstood why I was asking the question. If you read the rest of the comment you will get a better understanding.
I was trying to show that we are all sinners even though we think we are good people. We are "good"according to our own standard of good not God's. Yes, just as we love our children unconditionally God loves us the same way. Put it this way... God loves us but He hates what we do (our sin).Same with your kids I am sure. I am a mother of 7 so I can relate to what you are saying.
Everyone feels that they are good people. But God gave us 10 laws that we are unable to keep in our everyday life. We break at least one every day (I know I do).Therefore we can never get to heaven on our own. The Bible says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God Romans 3:23
That is why God sent His only son to die on a cross as payment for our sins.
It's kinda like this...
Let's say that you broke the law and your standing before the judge in a courtroom. Because you broke the law you must pay the penalty. The judge says that your guilty and sets bail at 100,000.00. You cannot pay the bail so you must suffer the consequences by going to jail.
Then someone that you don't even know stands up and pays your bail so you can go free. Thant's what Jesus did!
Because we have broken God's laws (the Ten Commandments) we have to pay the consequence which is hell (prison). The Bible says that the wages of sin is death (total separation from God forever) but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:8 says that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
It is us to accept this gift from God. To accept the payment that Jesus made for us at the cross.
So in all what I was trying to show was that we have allsinned but God provided a way for us to be saved from the punishment of sin. That way is through Jesus Christ.
Now... isn't my God a good God?
Let me try to be as clear as
Let me try to be as clear as I can here. Hopefully you'll be able to understand this.
You cannot define or judge my character based on your morality. My morality is not based on your premises. Your morality is flawed.
You do not live in order to live - you live in order to die. You have accepted that your purpose in life is to die. Your entire life is lived in order to prepare for death. Your reason for living is death. This is witnessed through the words and deeds of your moral code.
You sacrifice yourself (your self), your right of passage is suffering, your morality attempts to divide mind and body. You yearn for "judgment day" and are eager to pass into the "other world." You do not care for life - you care for the afterlife. Life to you is merely sufferable and suffering is your key to happiness...after death.
I do not live in order to die. My morality is based on life and living it. I live to achieve happiness in this life. I am not a "sinner" because you created a god that says I am. I do not need to be "saved" by other men's creations.
Now we cannot continue this discussion without going back to the roots of your religion and your morality. If you would like to continue, just let me know.
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Interesting article. Now, about the child and his chocolate...
The poor child suffers from Akrasia, the philosophical term for a lack of self control or going against better judgement. The child would be better off seeing a counselor, be it a friend or a professional who could help him identify the real reason he has such an appetite for chocolate. Armed with the right information and support the child will learn to control himself. Just like the rest of the world..armed with the right information and support, we can ease the suffering, waste and abuse. (Organized religion does not always allow for the right information and, NO, I don't have all the answers...But I'm sure "WE" do or can find them.)
As far as organized religion; Too much to get into in a comment..and not worth the effort of debate in this forum.
A phrase attributed to Abraham Lincold was "When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion."
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Well praise God!
You finally got it right! Now we are in agreement.
I cannot judge you the only one that can judge you is God
I live for eternity you live temporarily
I have something to look forward to and sadly you feel that you will just cease to exist
I do not care for life because it will one day rust old because it is temporary. I instead yearn for the after life where life is eternal and my future is secure.
Your morality is based on life which can end at any time You cannot add one hour to your life when your time is up you have no control over the length nor of the substance everything can be taken out of your life in a split second without warning or preparation.
mine is based on life with no end, eternal, forever! If tomorrow never comes, things are removed or even if I have to suffer in this life it does not compare to the security that I have for eternity. eternity is forever and ever and ever... your life may last at the most 80 years.
Now we agree. Thank you for helping me to see how blessed I truly am.
Religion is man made it has
Religion is man made it has nothing to do with God. Religion is mans way of creating a God he would like to serve, one that fits him.
I am not even referring to a religion in this article.I am however referring to a relationship with God.
I am not a part of a religion, denomination or cult (artificial Christianity). I have a one on one relationship with God. Which is what God requires.
I am with you on organized religion I do not agree with it nor do I support it. I don't have all of the answers either and your right this debate is not worth the effort because no matter what I say God must reveal himself to you for you to understand.
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So you agree that you have a
So you agree that you have a morality of death and I have a morality of life? And you're proud of that? Your mind is worse off than I thought. You are afflicted with the same sickness that plagues most of this world. As long as you - and people like you - continue to live for death, society will never achieve the greatness it ought to have reached by now. Your morality is a hideous disease to man and you welcome it with open arms.
And you call me the sinner.
By the way...you are religious - it has nothing to do with institutionalized practices. Your set of beliefs and your worship of the divine is what makes you religious. Don't confuse religion with dogma.
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I would also like to refer
I would also like to refer you back to my original comment on this Xombyte which has not yet been acknowledged. Any thoughts on that?
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I was raised Christian.
So, I do understand what you were saying.
As for whether or not I would say that your God is a good God? No, I wouldn't. I'm sorry, but you did ask.
Any God who creates human beings to be a certain way, and then tells them that they are all bad and not worthy to be in his presence, even though they are exactly the way he created them to be, is not a good God as far as I'm concerned.
And, frankly, I don't want to spend eternity with a version deity that I don't like. I would much rather accept the alternative with open arms. And, yes, I truly do understand what you believe the alternative is. And, yes, I truly would rather take it then spend an eternity with a being I didn't like.
I do know and understand that hearing this might upset you, confuse you, or even hurt you, and I do know and understand why that is. Again, I am sorry, but you did ask.
Fortunately, I don't believe that your spiritual path is entirely correct. So, I do have more love for the version of deity that I feel in my life every moment. And, I do believe that mankind is not doomed simply because they are who they were created to be. So, I'm pretty sure I won't have to choose the lesser of two evils, so to speak, between "the fires of hell" and the version of God I don't wish to be around.
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Thank you for your honesty.
Thank you for your honesty. and no, nothing that is said in this forum or any other offends me or hurts me because frankly your comments about God have nothing to do with me they are between you and God. I have already made my decision.
and to say that you would rather spend eternity in hell rather than spend it with a god that you don't like is sad, but again your choice.
thanks for your input.
obviously we will never
obviously we will never reach an agreement. Let's just say that we will all find out who's right or wrong in the end... yes when we die. It is then that this debate will be over.
Until then I must say that after reading your bio. and a few articles I am very impressed at what you have achieved at the age of 29. I commend you on your pursuit of knowledge.
Even though we do not agree on this subject (and never will) I must say that your education and achievements are impressive. I have sons in their 20s and not nearly as motivated as you are.
So bravo Publius you can sure put up a good fight.
Am I quiting? No, just stepping aside. This is not my battle it is God's.
I thank you for the kind
I thank you for the kind words.
My intent is not to change your beliefs but to try to open your eyes to the means in which others achieve their end. My moral code is based on the fact that we only have one life on this earth. Whether there is an afterlife or not, we will only be alive here on Earth this one time (as far as we know). I like to think that I'm taking advantage of that opportunity and that I will have no regrets when I die. I live life to live it, not to await my death or to look forward to something I cannot be sure exists. I do not live for any other purpose but my own.
There's no need to "quit." Some battles are meant to be fought at different times, or over long periods of time. Some aren't meant to be fought at all. We can both step aside and live to fight another day. I accept that there will be no "winner" in debates like this...unless knowledge and understanding are considered the spoils of victory.
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Thank you Publius. I hope
Thank you Publius. I hope you achieve everything in life that you are searching for.
Until we meet again....